I see no need to apologize for this post. The last was drunken in a guilty state of mind. This one is sober (so far anyways!).
Anyways, in about 6 months with a private teacher (3 times a week for 1-2 hours) my level of Korean, in regards to conversational ability, is about the same as my Japanese after 1.5+ years. As for reading/writing and vocabulary, Japanese certainly wins out due to the sheer number of hours spent.
I could probably argue either way whether Japanese or Korean has harder grammar, but whats the point of that? You shouldn't study a language because other people tell you its easier or more useful. Study a language because you want to be able to speak it. Because you want to communicate in the native language of your friends, g/bfriends or it will help you progress in your particular career, lifestyle, hobbies, etc.
The first thing I tell any of my students or anybody else who whines that learning a language is difficult is that if a Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Thai/Burmese/ Etc baby can learn the language, then so can you!
While learning a new language, you will inevitably fine your previously confident self reduced to the babbling incoherence of an infant learning to speak. There isn't anything wrong with that. The baby/child goes through the same process. Of course, it has no anxieties or past experiences to compare it to, nor does it have any other language to fall back on other than nonsensical sounds (unless baby-talk is a valid language anyways).
The second thing I point out is that no language is truly difficult. No matter which one you learn, it will take a while. It will take forever. You will probably die before coming anywhere close to a native speaker in terms of fluency. But is that really enough to stop you? You don't need to be the best. In fact, you can't! With all the time I spend on these other languages in a country where the level of English tends to be a bit below par to say the least (Thailand), I know that I can never equal to a native speaker. But the rewards for even covering a fraction of that distance are immense.
Which of the following is most important in learning a language?
-perfect pronunciation
-perfect grammar
-mastery of vocabulary
???
None of those of course. Communication is the key. If I understand what you are trying to say, then you are already on your way. You can fix up your inabilty to sound native over time.
If you can't find your own way, then try everybody elses until you find something that works. Once you've learned a 2nd language, the rest come much easier. All your previous mistakes become clear.
Sunday, August 27, 2006
Saturday, August 26, 2006
Gaping Wounds
About two weeks ago, I had this little pimple-like bump on my forearm near my elbow. I think I popped it semi-subconsciously and about a day later it opened up into a mighty unpleasant looking wound that is a bit larger than a dime. I've cleaned it multiple times a day, but it doesn't seem to want to heal. Oh well.
I just finished reading The End of Oil by Paul Roberts. It gives a very good explanation of the global energy situation and the importance it plays both today and tomorrow. Check it out.
I just finished reading The End of Oil by Paul Roberts. It gives a very good explanation of the global energy situation and the importance it plays both today and tomorrow. Check it out.
Wednesday, August 16, 2006
Drunken post I just left to a learning-Japanese forum
# Gwindarr Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
August 16th, 2006 at 2:19 am
I haven’t been to this site in a month or so and I was quite excited by your post. I have learned Chinese, Korean and Japanese to varying levels within the past 3 years, so I feel that while I am slightly inebriated at the moment, I can give you folks an idea of a few of the differences. This may take a while to spell out and probably won’t be as clear as it sounds in my head as I type it, but a few of you may find it interesting. Seriously, this will be a long post. If you are really into languages, read on. Really though, this will be super long! And possibly incoherent at times…sorry.
First, some background. I have lived in Thailand for about 3 years now. I had gotten interested in languages a year or 2 before that, but I hadn’t gotten serious until I got here. I spent much of my free time (which was almost all of my time) in the beginning studying Thai. After a couple months I signed up with a friend for a 3 hours (1.5 on sat/sun) Japanese class that was supposed to be for kids. It used the “Japanese for Young People” book (same people who made J for Busy P). After about 9 months I entered a uni that had just opened an international program. I was feeling serious about Japanese and I wanted to learn in an environment that was closer to full-time. I signed up at the uni and took an exemption test to skip the first semester of Japanese and I entered Japanese II with a bunch of other international students. I was a bit ahead of the class, but I still picked up a lot that term.
Speeding things along, the next semester, the teacher was simply amazing. Whereas Japanese II had 15 people, J III had 3. Of the 3 of us, 2 really wanted to learn. The teacher was flexible on schedule, learning styles, and anything else that we came up with. I took in so much that term. For the mid term, we had to write an essay on how we would teach the class if we were the teacher. So we wrote essays that fit our learning-styles and she incorporated a number of my ideas in later lessons.
Fast forward - I got accepted to a study abroad prog from Thailand to Australia (I’m American). I went to Melbourne and studied every language the school had: Chinese, Arabic and Indonesian. On top of that I frequented out English clubs and Japanese clubs so I could keep up with other stuffs.
Sorry - I just realized how long this was becoming. In Australia, I learned to read/write hangul in about 2-3 hours one day in Melbourne. It is so easy and efficient! I was singing Korean karaoke the same night! Admittedly it took a little while to learn the exceptions and the way that the last part of a ‘character’ can often carry over to the open vowel of the next… but thats nothing compared to the time involved in learning to read/write Chinese and Japanese.
Um - Sorry again for this being so long. I just was just trying to establish some credibility.
I speak, albeit at varying levels, Thai, Japanese, Chinese, and Korean. Three years ago, I didn’t know a word of any of these languages. I haven’t studied Korean nearly as long as I’ve studied Japanese, but I have noticed a number of important points.
First, as was mentioned in the above post, Korean is considerably harder to pronounce and therefore beging to register those foreign sounds for the listener. That took me a while. The sounds of Japanese are easy. However, reading and writing require quite a bit of time. Korean grammar is much like Japanese grammar. The order is the same. My time studying Japanese has made Korean a cinch to learn. There are exceptions, but **Wait! I am getting off my points!
Every language is easy!!! That is what I have discovered. This is what I want to stress to you. Method is key. Everybody wastes time and money in crappy situations with crappy schools and crappy teachers. Even if one of those 3 is good, it isn’t always enough to really show you how to learn a language.
I have never been to Japan or China, but I speak Japanese and Chinese. I wouldn’t say fluent, but I would say I could handle a number of situations to the point where I can fake fluency. Or talk myself out of a situation which also ends up faking fluency.
I have discovered that fluency is an endless process. I feel I am fluent in Thai sometimes, but I know deep down that I’m not. The definition of fluency is pretty strict. I speak 5 languages, but I am fluent in 1. I often refer to myself as a language monkey. I am often pressed to perform as people can’t believe that I can speak all of these languages. But it is my firm belief that anyone can do as I have done (with or w/o multiple languages) in the same period of time (or less).
Our first opponent is ourselves. That isn’t entirely true. Let me say it differently. The biggest obstacle is that it gets pounded into our minds by others in the ‘language community’ that such and such language is hard to learn. That is crap. Tonal languages for example. It will take some time to get used to the added dimension to a language, but the grammar of all tonal langauges (that I am aware of anyways..) are far less complicated in grammar than any Western language. It takes time to make up the difference, but the time required doesn’t compare to what it takes to learn to read and write Chinese characters. China, Korea and Japan…they all write/use them differently. But if you can learn one (language) the rest come easy.
**Now I focus on Chinese and Korean as far as classes go and I am on break from Japanese classes (because I can’t find a teacher that doesn’t suck…) while I work through Heisig’s RTK Book 1 (I’m in the 700s). My Chinese teacher is decent, and my Korean teacher is great. Why? Because they listen to my suggestions. I speak Thai fairly fluently, and all the students are Thai aside from me. Since the books tend to be Eng/Chin or Eng/Korean…or Eng/Jap.. I am the guy that has to figure out how to explain how to back translate a concept from Chin/Eng to Eng/Thai or what-not.
The Heisig method for learning kanji has been both a boon and a bane in my Chinese studies. On one hand, when I encounter a character that Japanese doesn’t use but has obvious primitives, I give the class a quick story and they all laugh and think I’m crazy, but they all remember the character. The other times are when the teacher points out some new character and asks what it means…I respond with the Heisig keyword to everyones suprise (thought not always - the meaning doesn’t always apply to Chinese). The problems arise when I try to Chinese-ify the stories from Heisig. It works often, but I feel like I reach overload status.
On the other hand,
Since I got back from Australia, my Uni has yet to offer a language class anywhere close to my level. I am forced to study part-time and privately to progress. But I don’t have the discipline to do it alone. Few of us do. If we can’t find the ideal learning environment, we must create it!
I apologize for the length and general incoherence that may have arose from this post.
I hope that somewhere in the above mess, someone noticed or was curious about where I was going with a point before it became lost in alcohol. If that is the case, please respond. I have much to say, but I am drained for now.
Language is easy. The problem isn’t you. The problem probably isn’t your teacher or your background/education/family/whatever (but these do matter!!!). The problem comes from your methods.
Finally, I apologize profusely for this slightly drunken post. I could go on, but I think its safer to stop here so you can rest your eyes.
August 16th, 2006 at 2:19 am
I haven’t been to this site in a month or so and I was quite excited by your post. I have learned Chinese, Korean and Japanese to varying levels within the past 3 years, so I feel that while I am slightly inebriated at the moment, I can give you folks an idea of a few of the differences. This may take a while to spell out and probably won’t be as clear as it sounds in my head as I type it, but a few of you may find it interesting. Seriously, this will be a long post. If you are really into languages, read on. Really though, this will be super long! And possibly incoherent at times…sorry.
First, some background. I have lived in Thailand for about 3 years now. I had gotten interested in languages a year or 2 before that, but I hadn’t gotten serious until I got here. I spent much of my free time (which was almost all of my time) in the beginning studying Thai. After a couple months I signed up with a friend for a 3 hours (1.5 on sat/sun) Japanese class that was supposed to be for kids. It used the “Japanese for Young People” book (same people who made J for Busy P). After about 9 months I entered a uni that had just opened an international program. I was feeling serious about Japanese and I wanted to learn in an environment that was closer to full-time. I signed up at the uni and took an exemption test to skip the first semester of Japanese and I entered Japanese II with a bunch of other international students. I was a bit ahead of the class, but I still picked up a lot that term.
Speeding things along, the next semester, the teacher was simply amazing. Whereas Japanese II had 15 people, J III had 3. Of the 3 of us, 2 really wanted to learn. The teacher was flexible on schedule, learning styles, and anything else that we came up with. I took in so much that term. For the mid term, we had to write an essay on how we would teach the class if we were the teacher. So we wrote essays that fit our learning-styles and she incorporated a number of my ideas in later lessons.
Fast forward - I got accepted to a study abroad prog from Thailand to Australia (I’m American). I went to Melbourne and studied every language the school had: Chinese, Arabic and Indonesian. On top of that I frequented out English clubs and Japanese clubs so I could keep up with other stuffs.
Sorry - I just realized how long this was becoming. In Australia, I learned to read/write hangul in about 2-3 hours one day in Melbourne. It is so easy and efficient! I was singing Korean karaoke the same night! Admittedly it took a little while to learn the exceptions and the way that the last part of a ‘character’ can often carry over to the open vowel of the next… but thats nothing compared to the time involved in learning to read/write Chinese and Japanese.
Um - Sorry again for this being so long. I just was just trying to establish some credibility.
I speak, albeit at varying levels, Thai, Japanese, Chinese, and Korean. Three years ago, I didn’t know a word of any of these languages. I haven’t studied Korean nearly as long as I’ve studied Japanese, but I have noticed a number of important points.
First, as was mentioned in the above post, Korean is considerably harder to pronounce and therefore beging to register those foreign sounds for the listener. That took me a while. The sounds of Japanese are easy. However, reading and writing require quite a bit of time. Korean grammar is much like Japanese grammar. The order is the same. My time studying Japanese has made Korean a cinch to learn. There are exceptions, but **Wait! I am getting off my points!
Every language is easy!!! That is what I have discovered. This is what I want to stress to you. Method is key. Everybody wastes time and money in crappy situations with crappy schools and crappy teachers. Even if one of those 3 is good, it isn’t always enough to really show you how to learn a language.
I have never been to Japan or China, but I speak Japanese and Chinese. I wouldn’t say fluent, but I would say I could handle a number of situations to the point where I can fake fluency. Or talk myself out of a situation which also ends up faking fluency.
I have discovered that fluency is an endless process. I feel I am fluent in Thai sometimes, but I know deep down that I’m not. The definition of fluency is pretty strict. I speak 5 languages, but I am fluent in 1. I often refer to myself as a language monkey. I am often pressed to perform as people can’t believe that I can speak all of these languages. But it is my firm belief that anyone can do as I have done (with or w/o multiple languages) in the same period of time (or less).
Our first opponent is ourselves. That isn’t entirely true. Let me say it differently. The biggest obstacle is that it gets pounded into our minds by others in the ‘language community’ that such and such language is hard to learn. That is crap. Tonal languages for example. It will take some time to get used to the added dimension to a language, but the grammar of all tonal langauges (that I am aware of anyways..) are far less complicated in grammar than any Western language. It takes time to make up the difference, but the time required doesn’t compare to what it takes to learn to read and write Chinese characters. China, Korea and Japan…they all write/use them differently. But if you can learn one (language) the rest come easy.
**Now I focus on Chinese and Korean as far as classes go and I am on break from Japanese classes (because I can’t find a teacher that doesn’t suck…) while I work through Heisig’s RTK Book 1 (I’m in the 700s). My Chinese teacher is decent, and my Korean teacher is great. Why? Because they listen to my suggestions. I speak Thai fairly fluently, and all the students are Thai aside from me. Since the books tend to be Eng/Chin or Eng/Korean…or Eng/Jap.. I am the guy that has to figure out how to explain how to back translate a concept from Chin/Eng to Eng/Thai or what-not.
The Heisig method for learning kanji has been both a boon and a bane in my Chinese studies. On one hand, when I encounter a character that Japanese doesn’t use but has obvious primitives, I give the class a quick story and they all laugh and think I’m crazy, but they all remember the character. The other times are when the teacher points out some new character and asks what it means…I respond with the Heisig keyword to everyones suprise (thought not always - the meaning doesn’t always apply to Chinese). The problems arise when I try to Chinese-ify the stories from Heisig. It works often, but I feel like I reach overload status.
On the other hand,
Since I got back from Australia, my Uni has yet to offer a language class anywhere close to my level. I am forced to study part-time and privately to progress. But I don’t have the discipline to do it alone. Few of us do. If we can’t find the ideal learning environment, we must create it!
I apologize for the length and general incoherence that may have arose from this post.
I hope that somewhere in the above mess, someone noticed or was curious about where I was going with a point before it became lost in alcohol. If that is the case, please respond. I have much to say, but I am drained for now.
Language is easy. The problem isn’t you. The problem probably isn’t your teacher or your background/education/family/whatever (but these do matter!!!). The problem comes from your methods.
Finally, I apologize profusely for this slightly drunken post. I could go on, but I think its safer to stop here so you can rest your eyes.
Tuesday, August 15, 2006
First Day of School - (by no means interesting)
I haven't registered yet, but I sat in on 2 classes today. First up was English for Labour Law. I wasn't really sure what to expect before I went in. I'm still not so sure after having sat through the first 1.5 hour class. The teacher is an older American from San Diego. By his numerous references to Christianity and Christian-related activities, I suspect he is a rather devout Christian. Not that its that important I guess, but I'm always wary of missionaryish-types. But I still give them a chance.
Anyways, Eng for Labour Law seems to be a class more about law in general than labour law. And the work would be fairly international which could be interesting. However, 2 of the books he plans to use are written by Thais from Thammasat University, one of the better unis in Thailand. He gave us some worksheets, but they were easy to the point of being silly. It was like 6 pages of questions, but I scanned it and answered everything in my head in under a minute. Its vocab and vocab-usage of law related terms. The occasional uncommon word that a non-native speaker probably wouldn't know and plenty of native speakers don't know (stuff like tort, barrister and the like), but I knew them all and I feel like this is yet another class which I could easily skip with an exemption exam.
The guy seems nice enough, but he has one of those voices that should be taped so I could listen to it at night when I can't fall asleep. I was having a lot of trouble staying awake in 2 1.5 hour classes of his today. He speaks so slowly and reads a lot of passages from our packets out loud.
On the plus side, we will be watching a few movies in class. If I take it anyways.
Next up is Small Group Communication. Nobody knew what to expect on that either. The class consists of Tan, Wat and myself, all 3rd year students. Neither Wat nor I have yet to actually sign up for the class, but we are considering. Its a small group anyways. We watched the scene of LotR where they form the Fellowship of the Ring. We then discussed the process of reaching the decision. While this part was fun, we still spent entirely too much time with the teacher reading out loud to us -therefore making me sleepy- and wasting time.
Tomorrow, a few more classes to check out. I'll need to register tomorrow though.
Sorry if this was boring. You were warned.
Anyways, Eng for Labour Law seems to be a class more about law in general than labour law. And the work would be fairly international which could be interesting. However, 2 of the books he plans to use are written by Thais from Thammasat University, one of the better unis in Thailand. He gave us some worksheets, but they were easy to the point of being silly. It was like 6 pages of questions, but I scanned it and answered everything in my head in under a minute. Its vocab and vocab-usage of law related terms. The occasional uncommon word that a non-native speaker probably wouldn't know and plenty of native speakers don't know (stuff like tort, barrister and the like), but I knew them all and I feel like this is yet another class which I could easily skip with an exemption exam.
The guy seems nice enough, but he has one of those voices that should be taped so I could listen to it at night when I can't fall asleep. I was having a lot of trouble staying awake in 2 1.5 hour classes of his today. He speaks so slowly and reads a lot of passages from our packets out loud.
On the plus side, we will be watching a few movies in class. If I take it anyways.
Next up is Small Group Communication. Nobody knew what to expect on that either. The class consists of Tan, Wat and myself, all 3rd year students. Neither Wat nor I have yet to actually sign up for the class, but we are considering. Its a small group anyways. We watched the scene of LotR where they form the Fellowship of the Ring. We then discussed the process of reaching the decision. While this part was fun, we still spent entirely too much time with the teacher reading out loud to us -therefore making me sleepy- and wasting time.
Tomorrow, a few more classes to check out. I'll need to register tomorrow though.
Sorry if this was boring. You were warned.
Friday, August 11, 2006
Pattaya Again
I'm sitting at a mall in Pattaya. I walked around and explored the beach, but its awfully hot and I don't really have anywhere to go so I'm waiting for my friend to finish work. I came with another friend from Bangkok for the first night, but she went back to Bangkok earlier today. I'll stay here for 2 nights, then head back to Chiang Mai on Sunday.
A minute ago, I got a phone call from my Korean teacher. She is coming to Pattaya tomorrow with the Chinese teacher from her school. She asked me if I wanted to speak to the Chinese teacher and I said no, as I didn't want to waste any minutes of the somewhat expensive internet time. So of course she puts the Chinese teacher on the phone for the usual language test. In this case, "Can Brett really speak Chinese?" So I think I passed the test as usual. I really feel like some language monkey sometimes. Admittedly, there are times when I like the attention, but other times I get kind of annoyed when people test my ability to speak their language.
So lets get this straight. I can speak 5 languages at the moment. This by no means implies that I am fluent in them, but I can say with confidence that I speak considerably more than a little. I'd say I'm fluent in Thai, but there are situations that occasionally occur where I don't know the most natural way to say something. And as far as reading and writing go, my Japanese is probably more advanced than my Thai. I realize I am something of a novelty as there tends to be a limited number of white people running around speaking Asian languages. Here in Pattaya, I can't explain how many times I get gawked out by Thais and foreigners alike once they hear me start talking. Most of the trash that live here never bother to get past their bar-girl-Thai.
I've made the fastest progress in Korean (well probably Indonesian, but I don't really count that as I stopped studying after I left Australia). In about 6 months I have a fair base of Korean and can appear fluent to someone who didn't know any better. But then again, I would argue that I am only fluent within the boundaries of what I've learned. I pretty much only speak with my teacher and she knows the limits of my vocabulary. I attribute my progress to my method of learning to a good book, the method I have developed for learning languages and a good flexible teacher willing to put up with my not very conventional ways.
I realize this isn't as coherent as much of what I write, but I've been feeling a little strange lately.
A minute ago, I got a phone call from my Korean teacher. She is coming to Pattaya tomorrow with the Chinese teacher from her school. She asked me if I wanted to speak to the Chinese teacher and I said no, as I didn't want to waste any minutes of the somewhat expensive internet time. So of course she puts the Chinese teacher on the phone for the usual language test. In this case, "Can Brett really speak Chinese?" So I think I passed the test as usual. I really feel like some language monkey sometimes. Admittedly, there are times when I like the attention, but other times I get kind of annoyed when people test my ability to speak their language.
So lets get this straight. I can speak 5 languages at the moment. This by no means implies that I am fluent in them, but I can say with confidence that I speak considerably more than a little. I'd say I'm fluent in Thai, but there are situations that occasionally occur where I don't know the most natural way to say something. And as far as reading and writing go, my Japanese is probably more advanced than my Thai. I realize I am something of a novelty as there tends to be a limited number of white people running around speaking Asian languages. Here in Pattaya, I can't explain how many times I get gawked out by Thais and foreigners alike once they hear me start talking. Most of the trash that live here never bother to get past their bar-girl-Thai.
I've made the fastest progress in Korean (well probably Indonesian, but I don't really count that as I stopped studying after I left Australia). In about 6 months I have a fair base of Korean and can appear fluent to someone who didn't know any better. But then again, I would argue that I am only fluent within the boundaries of what I've learned. I pretty much only speak with my teacher and she knows the limits of my vocabulary. I attribute my progress to my method of learning to a good book, the method I have developed for learning languages and a good flexible teacher willing to put up with my not very conventional ways.
I realize this isn't as coherent as much of what I write, but I've been feeling a little strange lately.
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